# fair tax



## C Nash (Aug 10, 2005)

Has anyone check into the fair tax that some are pushing to replace our present outdated and robbery income tax system. Check it out at http://fairtax.org/  if you favor this system you need to contact your senators and legislators and tell them you favor the fair tax and hope they will support it. Would like to see everyones opinion. Not a supporter yet but do think there has to be a better system than the present income tax system.


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## DL Rupper (Aug 10, 2005)

fair tax

Chelse, heard a little about it listening to Neil Boortz (spell check) on the radio  .  It appears to be a good idea, but need more data :bleh: .  It sounds like it would be fair and cost a whole lot less to administer than the present income tax system :laugh: .  It will take the politicians years to decide :evil: .  They like to have the control over raising   and lowering :laugh:  your taxes, which in theory they wouldn't/couldn't do under the Fair Tax proposal   :laugh:   .


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## C Nash (Aug 10, 2005)

fair tax

DL, Lot of questions need to be answered and I have been listening on a local radio station to a person that is for it. It would probably take a uprising to get the politicans to pass it because it would take the spending and control out of their hands. All these illegals that are here and not paying any income tax would also have to pay back into our economy. Seems like it would or possible could create a bigger black market on a lot of things. Crooks will find a way. CPAs would also probably be against it. Those for it also seem to think that in the long run goods would come down but I doubt that.


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## Kirk (Aug 11, 2005)

fair tax

Of course Neal Boortz supports it on his talk show. He was a coauthor! Like most people with a cause, his real interest is the economics of his own income.

This isn't really anything new. It is just the "Value Added" tax idea, rearranged. And the refrence to Europe proves that, since Value Added is what most of Europe has had for years. And we all want our economy to become just like that of Europe, right? There are things about a value added tax that would be good, but not everything. That site really does not explain how the tax works, it mostly advertises the book! Put simply, a value added tax is added to any product when it has been purchased by an individual or company and modified in some way that increases the value of it. So the company that buys the raw steel from the factory adds a tax. Then that buyer makes the steel into screws, so they add the tax. Then another company puts those screws into an appliance, so they add tax. And this happens each time that the product changes hands with some modification until it eventually reaches the consumer. But, the consumer still pays every penny of that tax because each time tax is added, the price is increased to reflect the amount added. The problem is that in the end, only the consumers pay any tax because everyone else increases the price to cover what they paid. It has to work that way for companies to survive. Imagine what the total tax part of the bill on a new house would be. The difference from sales tax is that with value added, the tax is paid by the seller and is hidden in the price that the buyer pays, so he doesn't see it.

A great deal of the problems with the income tax as it is now stem from the fact that taxes are not just used to raise money, but they are also an incentive to get us to do things that congress wishes to encourage. That is the reason for allowing us to deduct charitable gifts, or interest on a home, or many other deductions. And it is used to give money to the poor when other programs do not work, as in the "earned income credit" where you can actually get back more tax money than the total that you have paid in, if you are low enough income. If congress were to suddenly repeal the IRS codes of today with one very simple tax with no intermediate steps, our economy would go into turmoil! Life would sure be a lot more simple if this was done, but it would take many small steps to get there. We just won't live long enough to see any of these ideas happen. 

The fact is that Europe pays a far higher percent of each person's income in tax than we do. If you have health plans and welfare like they do in Sweeden, then you must also pay in about 1/2 of your income to pay for it, like the Sweeds do. There is no way that we can lower everyone's taxes and still have the services that we want. We all want to see better health care and perscription coverage for medicare recipiants. But we also want someone else to pay for it. The simple fact is that the middle income group have to pay the bulk of the taxes because we are by far the largest group of tax payers. I read once that if you took 100% of the income from all of the people in the US who have an annual income in excess of $1 million, you would only have about 4% of the total US budget. The only other way is to increase government debt by giving things we don't pay for. And that is exactly how we got to where we are now. It is the cheif cause of inflation and in the long term it will make matters worse.

Tax reform is surely needed, but no simple answer will ever work, nor will it happen.


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## DL Rupper (Aug 11, 2005)

fair tax

Hey Chelse, You can get all the facts in Neal Boortz's book, The Fair Tax Book.  Wal-Mart $13.97.  Not sure if it's a value added tax or a straight Federal Sales Tax.  Haven't read the book yet.


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## hertig (Aug 11, 2005)

fair tax

I flirted with this when it first came out.  The idea is that all (federal) income taxation and taxation on business would cease, being replaced with a national sales tax (about 23% if I remember correctly) on new sales to the final user.  The claim is that by removing all the taxes and costs of complying with tax laws from businesses, the costs would go down enough that the 23% increase at the register would not be fatal, and that the new taxes garnered would equal the old taxes being replaced. 

Sounded good; where it bothered me is that to be fair to the poor, every person in the country would get a yearly check for the estimated tax paid on 'necessities'.  Sounds like encouraging people to have a lot of extra kids to get their tax rebate checks...  Not to mention the government having to fire all those IRS folks, or even worse, keep paying them.  And then there is the impact to the industry which has evolved to help the general public deal with the whole mess.

Don't know if it would work, and I'm confident the government could screw it up anyway.


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## ARCHER (Aug 12, 2005)

fair tax

Whatever happened to the ole "Flat Tax Rate" idea?  To me, a flat tax rate is the fairest of all.  No deductions, no loop-holes, no cheating, etc.  If you make 100,000 per year and the rate is 10%, your tax is 10,000.  If you make 20,000 per year, your tax is 2,000.  This should also include Corporations.  All of those people that say the rich or corporations don't pay their fair share should like this flat rate idea.  All those that get all the handouts, loop-holes, etc.,  from our politicians won't like it.  
Just really think how simple it could be??  No auditors, no reams of forms, no billions of dollars to pay IRS staff, and our politicians could work on a few things a heck of a lot more important then trying to put pork into every law they try to pass.  Just my thoughts on this one.


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## hertig (Aug 12, 2005)

fair tax

A flat tax would be better than the mess we have now, but still leads to the double (or more) taxation, where we are taxed on money in, money out, money kept, and the stuff we traded money for...  And when you die, its taxed again for good measure.

All taxation should be EITHER on income or, even better, spending.


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## C Nash (Aug 12, 2005)

fair tax

John, I do like the idea of taxation on spending. Our area is running over with illegals and they pay no income tax. Would be great to get all the money you earn on your paycheck. Just can't make up my mind whether to support the fair tax. Really don't think it would have a snowball in **** chance of passing anyway but if politicians oppose it I guess I would be for it. Seems like everything they do now is for greed on their part. Think it's time for us to throw some more tea overboard :laugh:


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## johnwk (Aug 20, 2005)

fair tax




.
*A quick look at some myths of the so called fair tax.*

*MYTH:*

_The Fair Tax would replace federal personal, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, earned income, Social Security/Medicare, self-employment, and corporate taxes with a national sales tax.  _ 

*TRUTH:*

The proposed Fair Tax cannot guarantee even one of the above stated attractions because the proposed legislation, H.R.25,  if adopted by a current Congress and signed into law by the President, is nothing more that a list of suggestions to all future Congresses, and would not bind any future Congress` hands. Future Congresses would be free to amend H.R. 25  and manipulate it to accommodate the politically influential just as is now done with the current system, and could even bring back income taxation on top of the consumption tax which H.R. 25 would establish.. 

Contrary to the myth of what the supporters of H.R. 25 allege it will do, one way to achieve its featured attractions is by a constitutional amendment stating 

*The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money. *

If adopted, such an amendment to our constitution would bring us back to our founding fathers` original tax plan and accomplish the featured attractions of H.R. 25 by binding the hands of Congress and precluding a tax calculated  from any lawfully realized money, which H.R. 25 does not do because it is not binding law upon a future Congress.

By working to add to our Constitution the above stated words, rather than working to approve the meaningless lip service contained in the H.R. 25 legislation,  the stated objects of H.R. 25 are achieved and working people as well as business and industry will no longer suffer under the burdens of income taxation____ no more income tax paper work, no more filing income tax returns under the penalty of perjury, no more income tax audits, no more manipulation of an ``income`` tax system which favors one class over another, and, the ability of folks in government to use the income tax system as a weapon against political enemies is removed! 

As Thomas Jefferson warned us ``*In matters of Power, let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution``* 

Put the wording in the Constitution!

*ANOTHER POPULAR MYTH ABOUT THE SO CALLED FAIR TAX*

NEAL BOORTZ wrote in an article titled ANSWERING A FAIR TAX QUESTION:

*``It doesn't matter that paying taxes will be voluntary under the Fair Tax plan. It doesn't matter that nobody pays the retail sales tax on the basic necessities of life.``*

Contrary to the above lie, the truth is, all consumers pay the tax on the basic necessities of life under H.R.25.  The authors of  H.R. 25 have concocted what they call a *``family consumption allowance``*___  a monthly government check given to each American household putting them on the public dole, which is intended to be earmarked by each consumer to offset taxes *paid *on the basic necessities of life!

In essence, the so called fair tax rations tax-free basic necessities of life, and rations them by the size of the family consumption allowance allotted to each family. The family consumption allowance also gives *Senator Ted Socialist Kennedy* a very valuable tool which he and his socialist disciples in Congress will promise to increase during election time to buy millions of votes to remain in power, just as these socialists now do with the minimum wage, social security payments, aid to families with dependant children, Pell Grants, and you name it from the shopping list of government give-away- programs not recognized by our Constitution but created by Congress___ the only difference with H.R. 25 is, its family consumption allowance promises to extend the tentacles of socialism to every American household with a monthly government subsistence check, making the majority of American households dependent upon a monthly government check!

Were we not warned by Hamilton in Federalist Paper 79 that a: *POWER OVER A MAN`s SUBSISTENCE AMOUNTS TO A POWER OVER HIS WILL*?

The American people do not need to be made dependent upon a monthly government check.  If the authors of H.R. 25 were sincere in their proposal they would not attempt to tax the necessities of life, tools of production nor supplies necessary to conduct America`s businesses, and which our Founding Fathers never intended to be taxed when taxing consumption.  In any event, contrary to the lie used in promoting H.R. 25, consumers would in fact pay the tax on the basic necessities of life under H.R. 25!

As to a half truth used by Boortz to promote the socialist friendly H.R. 25 legislation, that half truth being;  *``It doesn't matter that paying taxes will be voluntary under the Fair Tax plan``*, such a statement would in fact be unassailable if, and only if, the necessities of life, tools of production and supplies necessary to conduct America`s businesses were not taxed under the H.R. 25 plan.  But such items would be taxed under H.R. 25 and to conclude as Neal Boortz does,  one must pretend that starving one`s self to death and the shutting down of America`s businesses and industries is a rational approach for Americans who wish to avoid paying the alleged ``voluntary`` tax on the necessities of life and supplies necessary to conduct America`s  businesses. And so, we list this assertion of Neal`s in the MYTH column where it rightfully belongs.

*Finally, H.R. 25 is in fact a liberal big government friendly plan!* 

Neal Boortz promotes his plan by saying ``liberals`` are attacking the plan.  But the truth is, no thinking conservative would ever promote the socialist friendly, big government friendly, H.R. 25 proposed legislation!

Boortz boasts that H.R. 25 is revenue neutral, which just happens to be code language for a plan intentionally designed to support existing big government and all the existing unconstitutional political plum jobs on Capitol Hill, many of which have six figure salaries, are not authorized by the powers granted in our Constitution, and do nothing more than redistribute money taxed away from hard working Americans for objects not authorized by the Constitution! 

Those who are sincere in wanting real tax reform, ought to be promoting a return to our founding fathers original tax plan, by adding the following words to our Constitution:

*The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money. *

These words bring us back to our Founder`s plan which helped to make America the economic marvel of the world, and also helped to control the actions of Congress!

For an outline of the Founding Father`s original tax plan CLICK HERE and scroll down to :

*American Constitutional Research Service Before the
Committee on Ways and Means
United States House of Representatives
June 1995*

Mr. Chairman and Members of this Committee: 

To see what real conservatives in America are promoting with regard to raising a federal revenue, CLICK HERE

Regards,

JWK

*``He has erected a multitude of new offices , and sent hither swarms of officers, to harass our people, and eat out their substance``* ___Declaration of Independence


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## DL Rupper (Aug 20, 2005)

fair tax

Hey johnwk, one thing I do know is Neal Boortz is no liberal.  The "Fair Tax" system deserves a fair hearing.  Just about anything is better than the present system.  If your "conservative" group has such a great proposal, why hasn't some influential organization got behind it and promoted it?  After reading some of your junk, it sounds like you would like the U.S. to go back to the dark ages.  We can't become isolationist's.  We are in a global economy and to ignore that would reduce us to a thrid rate country.


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## johnwk (Aug 20, 2005)

fair tax

Is that the best rebuttal you can come up with pal?


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## DL Rupper (Aug 20, 2005)

fair tax

Truth hurt :approve:


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## Kirk (Aug 22, 2005)

fair tax

quote:Neal Boortz is no liberal

While that is true, it is also true that if you actually read his proposed bill, it does have some pretty liberal solutions. He really does propose that each family receive a check from the government. That doesn't sound conservative to me.  But then the proposal that johnwk is offering won't work either, unless we wish to do away with most of the services that we now receive from our government. The problem is that we all want the services, but we also want someone else to pay the bill! 

I do not buy the theory that any of the national columnists or commentators are truely liberal or conservative. What they really are is manipulators who use political causes to further their own self interests. They play off of each other and they work as a team to self promote. If you really want to see how that works, just go to Fox news and watch Hanrady & Coomes. That show will fail if either one ever gets what the support and they both know it. Each side needs the other to survive.


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## Kirk (Aug 22, 2005)

fair tax

OOPS!


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## DL Rupper (Aug 22, 2005)

fair tax

Ain't nutt'n going to change as far as taxes go.  Both parties like to be able to fiddle with them. Up, down around about. I like down.  Like to spend my money on what I want.  Not what the politicians think I want.


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## C Nash (Aug 22, 2005)

fair tax

kirk, I agree that all the national columnsist and commentators are manipulators interested in ratings and self promoting.  look no futher than Sheenahan or whatever her name is.  I feel for her lose but why is the media not giving the  same amount of coverage to the people that support our service people that are fighting for the freedom we have.


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## spivey (Aug 26, 2005)

fair tax

This post is mainly for WK, since I have been finding his posts all over the net.

Hello there, new to this board but I saw WKs remarks and wanted to interject.

The sales tax that the Fair Tax proposes would (in all probabilty) not be collected by a new governement aganecy. How do states collect their sales tax now? That's right, the federal tax would be put upon the states to collect from retailers just how it is now (with due compensation from the federal level). How do states know which buisness to collect taxes from? Those buisnesses need to file whatever registration papers with the state, hence the registration section of H.R. 25. You cannot setup a legit buisness in any state without getting some kind of permit (not that I know of). The way WK makes it sound EVERY american would have to register, whereas is truth not much would change in most people's lives.

As for leaving loopholes for Congress to raise the tax or allow exemptions, why do you think our tax code is currently 55,000 pages long? Those loop holes have always been there. Everything in those 55,000 pages can be summarized as "suggestions" as to how the government can take away money we earn every day. Congress makes changes to the tax code as it's lobbyist see fit now. One of the goals of the Fair Tax is to try to level the playing field so the goverment has to pay the taxes on products that we would have to pay. If I am not mistaken, the original Constitution did not provide any means to tax income, I think it discouraged it if not out right said it was illegal. What happened? It was AMENDED. It does not matter what is added, Congress can always AMEND it out to fit what it desires. The only system of checks and balances that works to prevent them is the politicians' voters telling him/ her what they want and do not want. They are not re-elected if their rep does not represent them. Remember what just happened with the Kelo case? Soon after the emiment domain ruling came down, state and city level leaders began to toughen laws that govern emiment domain because they felt the heat from those that elected them into power. 

As for taxes on the neccessities of life, this is a prebate. What that means is each month a family would receive a check equal to the amount of tax the would pay on the neccesities of life based up to the poverty level (which is already caluclated by the government) BEFORE they paid those taxes. The reason this is included in the bill is to negate any additional costs from the 23% tax increase for the poor, to benefit and help the poor. It is not there to extend a socialist arn into the american family. That check would be a welcome investment check, but I do not think families would come to depend upon it.


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## hertig (Aug 26, 2005)

fair tax

Really?  Look at welfare, where some people pumped out babies in order to up their monthly checks.  I'll bet that will happen with this too.


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## Krazeehorse (Aug 26, 2005)

fair tax

"One of the goals of the Fair Tax is to try to level the playing field so the goverment has to pay the taxes on products that we would have to pay."  OK, who is this government and where does it get its money to pay tax?


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## spivey (Aug 27, 2005)

fair tax

Yes, lots of people do take advantage of the system in that way. But no one has ever said the Fair Tax was perfect. I feel it is way better than what we put up with now. 

On other thing, if the IRS was abolished, all of those employees could be relocated to Social Services to try and stop those that aim to take advantage of the system.

One of the main reasons the prebate section is included in the FT is becuase of politics. Some would read the plan and start screaming "What about the poor?! This puts undue burden on the poor!" Well, the prebate just about nullifies those taxes paid on their essentials and leaves the above mentioned "loophole" open.


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