# 06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"



## BigVClay (May 5, 2006)

Friends, 
As you may be aware, I have had a bad experience with Monaco Coach Corporation. In an effort to let others know about my experience I have posted a complaint at the following url: http://www.thesqueakywheel.com/complaints/2006/MAY/complaint8926.cfm


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## BarneyS (May 6, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Be aware also, that if you click on the link above, you will also be automaticly sending an e-mail to the Monaco Coach Corporation!    That fact should be mentioned in the post above!
Barney


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## Kirk (May 6, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

You do not understand electrical ratings. The rated current load is based upon a voltage of exactly 120V and that is seldom ever the case. As the voltage falls below that level, an ac motor will draw more current. Also, if the voltage should rise a little above the 120V, things like the water heater element will draw more than the rated current. 

Second, the 30A rating of a circuit breaker is what it is rated to carry 80% of the time, not 100% of the time. Thus if you load it to 29.4A it is almost certain to trip since that leaves only about .06% for margin of error. 

Your tactic to make it seem that every visitor to your site is agreeing with you is less than ethical, and particularly so since you don't tell people that it will happen until after they are already on your site. I am no particular friend to Monaco Corp. but I have serious doubts about this entire story, based upon the lack of ethics of your tactics.


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## BigVClay (May 8, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

I understand fully well basic AC theory. I am an electronic engineering technician and have been in the field for 25 years. You have failed to see my point.  The point is....Monaco Coach engineering staff has designed an electrical system where by the 3 major electrical appliances A/C, refrigerator, and water heater, are consuming greater than or equal too, 90% of the total current capacity. As measured and verified by the DEALER on a optimal power source this leaves me 3 amps to power the remainder of the appliances in the rig. There is not an Elec. Eng. that I have known in my 25 plus years of service, who would EVER design such a system so close to the limit. This in my opinion is a system that was designed for failure, especially when the sales person, who when asked point blank, if all appliances could be ran off electric said "YES". And if read thoroughly, you would see that this was just ONE of the TWELVE (12) things wrong with this rig. 

As consumers we've all been screwed by corporate America at some point in time. The usual response is to lay down and take it.  I for one am tired of taking such abuse. And have found that this is an excellent tool to let these large companies know that others are aware of whats being said or done.  Do you really think that all the complaining on a forum is getting to them?  The answer is NO.  

Sometimes you got to stand up for yourselves and others for what is right. 

We as consumers deserve the get better for the money we shell out. You can't change something by laying down. Most people take the position when they get taken is, "oh, woe is me". Why not "HEY, YOU CAN'T DO THAT"?


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## C Nash (May 8, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Welcome to the forum BigVClay but, being an electronic engineerimg tech for 25 years I would think you would have realized before you purchased the unit that 30 amps would not do the job. Not taking up for the salesperson but, he probably had no clue. Would also like to see more info on your profile.  JMO but, think you will have to lay down on this one. Good luck and keep us posted on how it turns out. Some come on here and post and never follow up on the problems.


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## BigVClay (May 8, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

I would have checked into the current ratings, but, Monaco is very careful not to SPEC ANYTHING. Even after we purchased the rig, all documentation provided with each electronic appliance carefully lists voltage requirements ONLY. NO CURRENT LOADING SPECIFICATIONS. The only way I knew how much these 3 appliances were drawing was to complain enough that the dealer finally measured each. That's when I found out these 3 appliances were drawing 90% of the total current capacity. 

Yes, I should have been more careful and more leary. But, when spending $30,000 one would think that the rig would supply enough current to run the enternal appliances. After all......that's what Monaco engineers are supposed to be getting paid for. 

If the post remains when this is concluded, I will inform all. 

I don't lay down....you have to knock me over.


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## C Nash (May 8, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Don't have an answer as to why they build the units so close to rated specs other than cutting coners. lot of flaws in the design and engineering of most rvs IMO but, as long as we keep buying them doubt that anything will change.  I think this is the reason the mfgs rename their units ever so often. I have also noted that some dealers change brands quite often.  Is this your first rv? If so hope it does not sour your opinion of camping.  The rvers you meet make it worthwhile. As bad as I hate to admit it might take toyoto are some foreign mfg to jump in and build some units to wake up our builders. It happened in the auto industry.


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## BigVClay (May 8, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

It does not sour my opinion on camping.  We as a family have been camping for years.  Just getting a little older now and the comforts of an RV are appealing to someone of my age. This IS however our first purchase of a large RV. We've done the tents and used to have a used pop-up that didn't have NEAR the problems that this thing did. I have a copy of the email that was sent, listing about 12 problems, if you are interested in seeing.  Maybe people would be more understanding of my frustrations if I provided the detailed list of items. 

Yes, I agree with you......good ole American made products.  That's why I use foreign made vehicles for reliable commutor transportion. However, I'm still a Chevy man when it comes to a tow vehicle. And yes, I too believe, that the Asian invasion (no offense intended) of automobiles in this country, made the big 3 step it up a notch....or two. American made vehicles today are much more reliable then they were in my parents time.  

It's very frustrating when you pour so much of your hard earned money into something that isn't up to par.


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## BigVClay (May 8, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Updated my profile and took a gander at your's.  

Say, is Six Mile near Eight Mile? :laugh:    We go through 8 Mile on our way to Florida.


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## Kirk (May 9, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Right, wrong, or indifferent, what Monaco says about the loads in their RVs that have a 30A power cord being the norm in the industry is correct. I do believe that they have some serious quality control issues, based upon the experience of three friends who have had a less than satisfactory experience with their products. Even so, I do not know of one RV manufacturer who does not sell RVs that have a 30A power cord and also have the same loads that your RV has. In fact, they even have the exact same appliances in them. At the same time, there is plenty of room to criticize the RV industry and a knowledgeable sales person should have known that you would not be able to operate all of your loads at one time. I do think that because that is common knowledge among we who are experienced RV owners, we may at times believe that everyone should know, perhaps without justification. I think that the issue here should be more with the lack of ethics of your sales person for not warning you of that fact, rather than with Monaco for building to a standard that is almost universal in the industry. If there are 11 other problems with the RV, you may well be justified in your dislike of the company, but this one is a poor choice to demonstrate. Without great detail, why not list the other issues as you may well get much more empathy.

One issue that you have not addressed is your questionable ethics of posting a link to a site that any visit will trigger a message to Monaco, and not having had the courtesy to let anyone know that before they visit. Does one bad deed justify another?


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## C Nash (May 9, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Guess it would be two miles from me :laugh:  :laugh: .  No , I don't think there is a 8 mile around here.  I am about 40 miles south of Birmingham Al.
Good to see you posted more on your profile. I get kind of leary of post that have only names and no more info but, I understand how some feel about posting all info on these things. No privacey any more anyhow.  Somebody is allways watching or listening  .  yes, I would also like to see the other problems.  Post them here or e mail


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## BigVClay (May 9, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Mind you some of these are quite small.  BUT, to have this many problems on a brand new rig is quite surprising to say the least. Makes me think our rig was built on Friday just before closing time. :dead:   The dealership is also working with us to get the electrical part taken care of.  He agrees with the fact that there were no electrical upgrades available with this rig considering all that was in it. There IS however the upgrade available for Travel Trailers...but not the 5th wheels. :blush: 

I'll let ya know how it all works out.


1.) The "Main" breaker can not handle the current load of the three major appliances 
       AC, refrigerator and water heater. If these three appliances are on the "Main" breaker 
       will trip randomly. 

  2.) Water is collecting on the main shelf under the bedroom window after a rain shower. 
       Water stains are visible in the two top drawers under the main shelf. I do not know 
       exactly where this leak is coming from. My guess is the bedroom window, however 
       it could also be along the seam where the rubber roof meets the front cap. 

  3.) There is also a leak under the kitchen sink. It appears to be coming from the cold 
       water feed line to the faucet cold water valve. 

  4.) I also noticed water collecting in the sub floor storage compartment directly under 
       the bathroom sink. 

  5.) The kitchen dinette seat cushions do not fit in the space provided to convert the 
       dinette into a bed. This allows the cushions to move around under the person 
       trying to sleep on them. I also had to remove and reinstall the rear most bench from 
       the floor because the two benches were not parallel to one another making it impossible 
       for the table top to seat correctly between the two benches. 

  6.) The rear most window (small window) on the "Slide Side" of the rig, the holes that are 
       drilled in the window frame to accommodate the spring loaded window latches are not 
       drilled parallel to one another allowing only one window latch to work properly. 

  7.) Black water tank level indicator does not indicate accurately. I had waste water backed 
       up into the toilet and the indicator was still reading 2/3 full. 

  8.) There is a rubber strip mounted on the top of the living area slide that is mounted incorrectly. 
       It obstructs the "Sweeping" action of the top outer most seal therefore allowing excessive 
       water and debris to be pulled inside the rig when the living area slide is retracted. 

  9.) The thermostat is not even closely calibrated. 

 10) Emergency break-away switch.....COMPLETE ELECTRICAL MELT DOWN. 

 11) Have to "slam" main entry door to shut properly.


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## Krazeehorse (May 9, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Have you investigated the lemon law in your state?


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## BigVClay (May 9, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

It may be industry standard...but...it's an industry standard because we ALLOW them to make that way.  We don't say anything otherwise to show our distaste in the way they want to do things to cut corners. 

The fact is these 3 appliances are drawing more than 90% of the total current capacity on a 30 AMP system.  If the system were upgraded to 50 AMPS, these same 3 appliances would only be drawing about 54%...........it's a no brainer!!! This would leave me enough current to turn on the lights and TV!! 

The email that is being sent to Monaco is anonymous and it doesn't say wether you agree or disagree.  It mearly states that another person has read the complaint. Here is an example of the email that is being sent. 

This letter is being sent to notify Monaco Coach Corporation that I have posted a complaint at www.TheSqueakyWheel.com and another potential customer has just viewed the complete details of my complaint! 

At this time, my complaint has been viewed by 458 people. 

Because this page has been indexed by 5 major internet search engines more people will be viewing it shortly. 

If you would like to resolve this complaint, I may be contacted via e-mail.


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## BigVClay (May 9, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Yes, I have investigated the Lemon Law in our state.  And as such, everything is being documented and saved.


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## Kirk (May 10, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Now you have posted some things that are clearly issues that are valid. Any water leak from any source is a serious concern and should be repaired by the dealer under warranty ASAP! The window problem is also very valid and I would expect a new window, rather than a repair if my reading of your description is correct. Most of the waste tank indicators are adjustable and the dealer should have no problem in correcting that issue. And #8 & 10 also should be fairly easy to correct. On #11, it is hard to say as many RV doors require a pretty good shove to close and latch, mostly because they don't weigh as much and most doors do. But it too is one that is subjective so I would not give an opinion at all. The brake away is safety equipment and should clearly be a warranty issue. 

On numbers 1, 5(the cushions), and 9 I have some doubts about, but clearly you do have some serious issues that should be addressed. If I were to do the web site, I think that I would suggest the use of the leaks as the lead issue since those are the most destructive of the issues you have if not corrected.


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## Hancock (May 13, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Hey BigVClay,

I for one support you fully for your frustration and ranting for the poor design and workmanship from Monaco.  I also feel that the general purchasing public should have every right to expect the manufacturer to be the experts and furnish a technically correct and fully functional product.  We should not make excuses for themâ€¦..because it has become an industry norm to be deficient.  To expect that each and every consumer of RVs is going to be competent to pickup on the technical aspects of their purchase is arrogant non-sense.....a small percentage are.  Most buyers are faced with trusting the manufacturer and the selling dealer to be fair and honest.   Also I would suggest that you not be dis-heartened by the arrogance of some of the "know it all..forum police" who apparently don't have anything better to do than to police our post by their standards.   Dare say, if you said it was white....they would say it is black. I also have a Monaco product and also have a good list of design and workmanship issues.  So rant on......and letâ€™s hope that Japan, Korea or China will enter the RV manufacturing business soon.


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## C Nash (May 13, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Leroy, I thought we all just gave Bigv our honest opinion.  Reading all the post I think we agree that some of the problems are truly poor work by the MFG and selling dealer. As to the problem, which was the only one mentioned in the original post, of kicking the circuit breaker. I agree that it is terrible engeneering but most all 30 amp rvs are built like this.  Not just Monaco. Are we willing to quit buying, I don't think so. Remember that all our post are just our honest opinions and most here are willing to share them. Really don't know who you was refering to as forum police but some of us have been here from the begining and this is the most helpful group of any forum on the net IMO.


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## TexasClodhopper (May 14, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Hancock, this isn't a contest of "know it alls".  This is not a forum for debates, as there are other forums for that.  This is an RV forum.  Each one of us adds what we know or an opinion about a subject (usually RV topics, but not always).  Your comment about "know it all..forum police" is totally over the top.  You've only had 9 posts to the whole forum.  Please give the forum more posts before you form an opinion about how you get treated here.  I think all have treated BigVClay with due respect.

One way I handled the specmanship of the manufacturer of my MH is to get the salespeople of "the other guys" working for me.  Even though I'm from Texas, I used Missouri's motto quite often; "Show me!"


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## BigVClay (May 15, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Wow!!  That's my first reaction to the previous 3 posts above.  

My second is to respond accordingly.

First off, Hancock, thanks for your support and understanding in what I'm trying to accomplish here. 

Second,  I have to say to the rest of the posts including Hancock's. I appreciate each and everyone of you that have responded.  "Forum Police"?...I haven't experianced that here like in all other forums, yet.  I have a problem with a Manufacterer and have posted. I have received some wonderful responses to what seems to me some pretty outstanding people on this forum....unlike the other forums. From the other forums the "forum police" have completely erased all my posts and responses, because I was in total disagreement to a product. Hence, Hancock, your saying "if I say if was white...they say it's black". 

Because of the ability to voice my opinions openly on this forum, I think I'll stay    :kiss: 

I encourage all and any responses, be it for my case or against it.  I also encourage any and all suggestions.  I am an open minded person and expect other's to have that same right. 

I am a newbie when it comes to RVing and therfore cannot give many suggestions.....but hope in the future, I can.  Until then, I am enjoying the suggestions that is given to me and love to read what other's have posted about the same problems that I have encoured during our outings.  Especially the stinky toilet  :dead:  :dead:  :dead: . 

Again, thanks to all and I am still in the process of resolving my original issues.  :kiss:  :kiss:  The dealership is finding some surprising responses from Monaco and is also disputing some things with them.


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## DrBizman (May 15, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

Monaco is terrible about taking care of their customers and my dealer I purchased through in Houston was COMPLETELY useless.  We had purchased a new Holiday Rambler Ambassador 38' Diesel Pusher that had total brake failure twice and partial failure a third time.  

Ended up going to TXDOT and filed a lemon law complaint and won our case.  Even with winning we still ended up going through 18 months of agony because the brakes were just one of the 12 issues we could not ever get resolved.  Many water leaks, slide-out problems, cabinet doors falling apart, you name it.


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## benwd (May 15, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

I have mixed opinions about this. That is, I don't believe a salesman about anything, and if you are a tech with plenty of experience you had the capability of doing your own research and calculations, which most buyers don't have.
I have a house on a code 200 amp service and when I add up all the appliances at 80% of the breakers they exceed the 200 amp main and it's not a problem. Should rv's be like this? Probably not, as Monaco, for another hundred dollars could have made it a 50 amp unit. I don't like Monaco and where they have gone in the last few years, but that is opinion.
I have 50 amp but don't get to plug in much, other than 30, and I am used to having to turn off something so I can make coffee etc. You're not alone in this as the rest of us have learned to accomodate.
All that said, there are some things you can do, as I have made a few mods to the electrical to make things easier. The fridg is the easiest as you can connect its' 110 directly to the 20 amp at the pedistal with an extension cord.
You can add a couple of outlet boxes to the water heater so it can be rewired with a plug to plug in to the rv power or external 20 amp circuit. My rv has been highly modified regarding electrical and plumbing to correct for design shortfalls and to make it the way I want. I don't know of anyone who hasn't made changes to their rv systems to make them more of what they want.
Should Manaco have made your unit 50 amp? Yes. Are you going to win this one? Maybe, but not because it's not 50 amp.
I think your water leaks are the big issue and that's where you need to apply pressure.


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## BigVClay (May 15, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

benwd,

Should I have researched? Probably. Though, don't know where I could have gotten factual information about appliances without removing cover from A/C and getting into rear panel of refrigerator and water heater. Most people simply don't do this, nor do they care.  They expect it to work.  For if I had relied on Monaco to supply me with documentation on each appliance, it would have been what they gave me when I purchased the rig.  And lo and behold there is not ONE SINGLE appliance spec. regarding current draw.....only line voltage requirements. It seems this industry is reluctant to supply factual specifications because they know the consumer will hold them to it.  

As far as the house goes. I'm assuming most people have 150-200amp main breaker, and I'll bet every single one of us can run our A/C, water heater and refrigerator without exceeding 80% of the main breaker rating. A builder would be ludicrous to install such a system.  I am only asking the same thing from an RV manufacterer.  I'm not talking about running coffee pots, toasters and/or any other external appliances.  I'm only talking about running the basics.  

As far as you not being able to plug in very often.  You might try this gadget http://www.rvexit.com/details.asp?Product=431&SubCategory=99 it's called a "cheater box" and it will combine 20 and 30 amp shore power circuits into a single 50amp outlet that you can plug your rig into. 

I too have thought of rewiring....in my case the A/C...because this is the major current contribution. But, I figured why not get the dealer to do it for me.  After all I did just pay close to $30k. And I see no reason for me to have to redesign the electrical system, knowing fully well the first time something goes wrong with the electrical system, they will refuse to repair it under warrenty because I modified it. If I don't win my case, this is what I'll end up doing. But, I have 11 months left on my warrenty, and they're going to keep hearing from me along with everyone else who agrees with me. 

Thanks again for your input and I don't mean to sound smug, however, it might come out that way.


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## Johnny-O (May 15, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

BigVClay,
   I'm sure most people can understand your frustration. When you bought your trailer you had stars in your eyes and great expectations of fun for you and your family. Then you took the trailer home and found things wern't as perfect as you had imagined. I think they call this a reality check. I'm not trying to say you don't have issues, but the 30amp service in your trailer is the same service all the factories have been using for years. The only thing that's changing is the number of appliances that are now considered standard, even in the entry level coaches. You can always upgrade to a 50amp service, but what good is that going to do you as most parks are wired for 30amp service only. If that isn't enough, most parks are inadequatly wired for even 30amp services, as most expierienced RVers already know. If any thing the factories need to make standard an "Energy Management System" in all coaches to juggle the appliance load for you. Either way 30amp services are a fact of life in RVs and you need to learn to live with it. As for the rest of your list, with the possible exception of the leaky window, this stuff should have been caught in the dealer Pre-delivery inspection. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Monaco, they're more than capable of screwing things up, but they pay these dealerships to take care of there customers and fix these problems. Most of your problems appear to be minor. You should put some of blame where it belongs, and ask why these problems were not taken care of before they became such a problem. LOL
                                                   The Boz


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## benwd (May 16, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

I've thought about this some more. My earlier post regarding you checking to see if the electrics were adequate was off base. It's the same as crawling under the coach and measuring the springs and getting the steel specs to see if the springs will carry the load. I agree that Manaco screwed up, but unfortunately, as the previous post pointed out, most use 30 amp. I believe 30 amp is obsolete as manufacturers tend to use it on single ac units and go to 50 [100] amp on units with two ac's. That doesn't make sense as the extra ac only adds about 50% more load where going from 30 amp to 50 is more than a 300% increase in capability.
Again, I don't think you are going to win the 30 amp thing, however, Monaco might be willing to pay for a single 50 amp circuit, ie, if the wires from the beaker box to the power cord compartment can be repulled with 6-6-8, a 50 amp breaker installed and a 6-6-8 power cable terminated with a 50 amp plug connected at one leg then it would solve the problem. I've had success with manufacturers in the past with these types of compromises.


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## Kirk (May 16, 2006)

06 Starwood LX FW   "Buyer Beware"

I think that Benwd's first post has a lot of truth to it. If you go look at your main power panel in your stick house you can easily add the total of all circuit breakers and it will nearly always exceed the max. of the service feed. It is very common for the total of all breakers to be near 150% of the supply. That is because it is very unlikely that you will ever have all house circuits running at max. load at the same time. But, and RV is pretty different, especially when wired for 30A service. There are RV owners who prefer 30A service because many RV parks will charge extra for 50A service. A great deal of that is because the 50A service is actually two separate 50A breakers while 30A service has only one breaker. In practice, an RV with 50A service can easily use 80A continuous and 100A for brief periods, so they can use more than twice what the 30A RV can. That is the reason that so many parks do charge extra for it. 

I suspect that a major part of the reason that customers are not generally told about the difference in 50A/30A service and the limits of 30A service is the fact that very few sales people know the difference. It is probably true that a new customer should be made aware of the limits of having 30A power service, I think that it is probably very rare for that to actually happen. This whole discussion supports my philosophy of "Never trust a commissioned sales person!" Even if they do know the difference, very few would tell you. 

Thirty amp electrical service has been the standard of the RV industry for more than 30 years. That came about when we began to have more than just a few lights and a refrigerator to supply. It came to be a standard as the air conditioner became a common appliance. But RVs have increased in electric power demands just as other areas of life have, but the RV industry has been slow to increase the capability of the power cord. There are quite a few reasons. The 50A cord is difficult to manage and especially so when in cold weather. The cost of the cord and extra wire requirements and distribution panel and such are probably a factor. And not the least of importance is the fact that 50A service is still rare in public parks and older RV parks. At the same time, the higher end RVs are rapidly moving to 50A service as the standard, but the lower priced ones are usually 30A with some offering an upgrade to 50A for extra cost. I'm not sure that I have an answer to the obligation of the industry to move to the 50A standard. I do know that many RV manufacturers are still building to a 30A standard but then installing power management systems that will select loads to keep you below the 30A limit and a few even have that available with a 50A cord but the ability to select either 50A or 30A service as the management point.  That is probably the best system. 

Yours is not the first nightmare about Monaco that I have heard in the past few years and this company that once had an excellent reputation seems to have been sliding in quality the past few years. I still believe that the leak issues should be the highest priority to be corrected and doubt that the power question is winnable. But those leaks can, and will make the RV unusable in a pretty short time! I clearly do stand behind you in the effort to get that repaired. One thing I will say for Monaco is that I have heard some great reports about the repair services at the factory, if you take it there.


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