# Alternatives Anyone?



## DL Rupper (Jul 15, 2008)

I don't know about you, but I'm tired of hearing about ALTERNATIVE energy .  My diesel runs on diesel fuel.  I can sure buy allot of diesel fuel even at $5.09/gal (Washington) for the cost of a NEW vehicle that runs on Alternative ???? whatever's.  My ol Dodge hasn't pulled my RV up any hills with windmills or solar panels lately.  Time to do some thing beside talk about pie in the sky. :dead:


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## Kirk (Jul 15, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Now DL, don't you think that it is about time to start collecting used cooking oil to burn in the thing?


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## Shadow (Jul 15, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Agree with you 100% DL..  Drill our own and start building some refineries.


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## elkhartjim (Jul 15, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Only one problem....environmentalist.  Sandpiper might get a drop of oil on it or the walrus may have mating season disturbed.
80 billion barrels off California.  More than that in Alaska, Rockies.  I'm hoping they will drill my lease soon.  Probably will mess up the deer hunting but it won't bother the wild hogs.  Dang it.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

well for u that don't read the news ,,, bush released all the restrictions on drilling,, but it still has to go to congress for the final vote ,, but ,, get this ,, the big oil company's are all for it ,, now i wonder why HMMMMMMMMMMM    :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:


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## Grandview Trailer Sa (Jul 15, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

There is finally a debate about how "great" the hybrids are VS cost.  Going to be on my local news tomorrow night.  

I know my 2001 Pontiac Bonneville is paid for and only has 60K on it.  It gets 23-25 in the city and has gotten 32 on the highway.  I cannot see buying a new car, with a payment, and only gaining a few mpg's.


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## H2H1 (Jul 15, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Hey Rod could it be $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, but I don't care how much they make a s long as the gas /fuel  get a lot lower than what it is now. I know it is cramping alot us who would like to get out more.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

u'r right ,, Hollis ,, but i think even when they start drilling ,, and it will be a long time ,, we still will not see the drop in fuel prices ,,, it's their way of making up for the lost in the drilling area ,, but then agian fuel was (in my parts) diesel 4.49 then 4.79 (today) ,, gas 3.82 then 3.97 (today) and to think oil went down ,, but the rpices went up ,, and to think at both pf the stations close to me ,, they have not got a new load of fuel since the weekend ,, and now they are upping the prices ,, it's gouging ,, i tell u ,, but to the gig oil it is not ,, it's the expense of the above ,, so go figure    :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:


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## TexasClodhopper (Jul 16, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

There is no quick solution. Not one. No "alternative" is available at this time or at any time in the near future.

The excuse for NOT drilling in certain areas has ALWAYS been that it would not bring about a quick solution. That excuse has been used for the last 20 years. So, the drilling solution is always 10 years away.

If we do nothing but allow more drilling, we will not have alleviated the problem with refined fuel. We need to lift the bans on refinery construction at the same time. Then when new oil supplies become available, we will also have the refining capacity to take advantage of it.

Please note the one leetle tiny point that our illustrious and edumacated lawmakers neglect to inform you of (and you should question them about it unless you want to continue to be a pawn in this game they play.)

They neglect to inform you that once more drilled-for oil is available there is nothing to keep that new supply from just being sold into the available market at prevailing rates. We could still be left buying oil from the Mideast, while our increased domestic production is sold on the open market to whomever has the bucks to buy it.

Surprise!


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## H2H1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Good point Tex, never thought about that part. Like you said that never did  mention as what they will/can do with the new oil.


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## utmtman (Jul 16, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

You got that right Tex, that is what I have been trying to say all along.  Good gosh what good is drilling if we have no place to refine it.   All that is going to do is put more oil on the market for foreign interests.


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## H2H1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Good point Lee


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## elkhartjim (Jul 16, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?



This won't solve the problem, but it helps.Press Release
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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Motiva Celebrates Groundbreaking for Largest Refinery in United States10 Dec 2007
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Dignitaries scheduled today at site of future 600,000 barrel-per-day refinery include U.S. Secretary of Energy Samuel Bodman 



Motiva Enterprises LLC today will officially break ground for its recently announced 325,000 barrel-per-day (b/d) refinery expansion in Port Arthur, Texas. The expansion will increase the refinery&rsquo;s crude oil throughput capacity to 600,000 b/d, making it the largest refinery in the U.S. and one of the largest in the world. The upgrades and modernization will lead to new supplies of transportation fuels for U.S. markets, add jobs to the local economy and decrease the refinery&rsquo;s ozone precursor emissions from present day levels.

Commenting on the construction groundbreaking, Welte said: &ldquo;This is a major milestone in the journey to meet our nation&rsquo;s growing energy demand. By adding 325,000 barrels per day capacity, the expansion is equivalent to building a new refinery.&rdquo; 

The expansion will bolster energy security in the U.S. by strengthening the supply of gasoline, diesel, aviation fuels and high quality base oils. The new production capacity is expected to be online in 2010 and will increase Motiva&rsquo;s supply of Shell-branded fuels to the company&rsquo;s wholesale and direct supply markets. In all, the refinery will produce about 23 million gallons of transportation fuels per day.


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## Buckeye Chuck (Jul 17, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

I wonder how much oil is used to generate electricity?  Maybe we should allow more nuke and wind powered power plants.  This will free up oil for our fuel hungry tow vehicles. Also alternative fuel cars and other vehicles will also help.  There is a place for alternative fuel vehicles.  Anything we can do to explore ways to decrease our dependency on oil is GOOD. Less oil used for these applications leaves more for us RVers. I think that the answer is not drilling for more oil but finding ways to use less.  Bring down demand, bring down price.  A  GOOD thing anyway you look at it.

-BC-


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## TexasClodhopper (Jul 17, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

I don't mean to be personally confrontational, Chuck, but that attitude is exactly how we got where we are now. What do you mean that the "... answer is not drilling for more oil ..."  Our basic national security depends on importing LESS oil.  Of course we can try to REDUCE our use of oil, but the fact is that as we do that oil gets cheaper, and it will be an economical energy source once again. It is self regulated as a market based item.

There's no way we can ever remove our dependency on oil. We had this discussion 20 years ago and the predictions then were for what we have now. I was in the business and remember it distinctly. We saw the future then, and now we are living it.

Most electricity is generated with coal. Some 20% is probably generated by nuclear depending on the area.  We built a nuke plant south of Houston some time back. I think it took 20 years from start to finish to get it online. Very complicated and with a lot of public scrutiny and comment. It took a partnership of municipalities and other investors to bring it in. More than half of them sold out before it came online.  

(I hate to say it, but the French model of nuclear power is the most viable. They are the most experienced, too.)


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## utmtman (Jul 17, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

I only know of water, coal, and wind power for electricity.  Who or what is using oil?


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## Kirk (Jul 17, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Actually, a major share of electricity today is generated burning natural gas.
In 2007:

    * 48.6 percent of our nation's electricity was generated from coal.  Nuclear energy produced 19.4 percent.  Natural gas supplied 21.5 percent.  Hydropower provided 5.8 percent  of the supply. Fuel oil provided 1.6 percent of the generation mix. Other renewable resources, such as geothermal, solar, and wind, provided 2.5 percent, with other miscellaneous sources providing the balance.
    * The following amount of electricity, in gigawatt-hours (GWh), was generated from the nation's fuel mix:
          o Coal: 2,020,572 GWh
          o Nuclear: 806,487 GWh
          o Gas: 893,211 GWh
          o Hydro: 241,319 GWh
          o Fuel Oil: 65,708 GWh
          o Other renewables (geothermal, non-wood waste, wind, and solar): 102,988 GWh
          o Other: 29,230 GWh
From: http://www.eei.org/industry_issues/industry_overview_and_statistics/industry_statistics/index.htm


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## Kirk (Jul 17, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

If you want more information on electricity and where it comes from, check this link as it gives a great breakdown for those who are interested.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/tablees1a.html


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## Kirk (Jul 17, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

According to NationMaster.com the consumption of oil by country for the top ten is:

#1    	United States:   	20,730,000 bbl/day    	
#2   	China: 	6,534,000 bbl/day   	
#3   	Japan: 	5,578,000 bbl/day   	
#4   	Germany: 	2,650,000 bbl/day   	
#5   	Russia: 	2,500,000 bbl/day   	
#6   	India: 	2,450,000 bbl/day   	
#7   	Canada: 	2,294,000 bbl/day   	
#8   	Korea, South: 	2,149,000 bbl/day   	
#9   	Brazil: 	2,100,000 bbl/day   	
#10   	France: 	1,970,000 bbl/day   	

The Energy Bulletin has a lot of interesting numbers and some facts about who is buying oil products and where the trends in consumption are.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/45594

There are many other places with a great deal of information on the subject. You might be amazed the amount of information one can find by plugging "US Oil consumption"  or  "US Electricity generation" into Google or your favorite search engine.


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## Shadow (Jul 17, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Ok Tex, do you think the recent drop in the price of oil is because of Bush's executive order or just a coincidence. The news reports it's a drop in demand.
Do you see it continuing to drop or are the speculators fixing to make another run?


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## TexasClodhopper (Jul 17, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Actually, "speculators" are those folks that run your retirement funds and such, also.

If those that buy into the futures markets, sense a downturn in the USA economy, they will assume that the downturn will mean lower consumption of oil.

That will mean that crude oil has less value to them.

Therefore the price will drop.

I believe you are seeing that these futures traders are not confident in the USA economy.

A lame duck president doesn't have that much influence, but we can't discount the effect of an expansion in domestic drilling on the futures market. It has to add in there somewhere.


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## Buckeye Chuck (Jul 18, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

OK, we agree that it is a good thing to reduce our dependency on imported oil. Hell, I'd like to see a time when we never have to import another drop of oil. And that day CAN come if we put our minds to it. Maybe not in my lifetime but it can happen if we don't give up and keep working on ALTERNATIVES. What's wrong with that? 

-BC-


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## Buckeye Chuck (Jul 18, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

I meant just what I said.  The answer is to reduce our consumption not drilling for more.  We  are in an endless cycle of price swings and this will never stop as long as we consume billions of gallons a year. What do you think the oil companies will do with the oil they get from drilling new wells? It's just as TEX said earlier. They will put it on the open market and sell it to the highest bidder and we'll still be importing oil. The price may come down but then demand will go up and so will the prices. The world and the U.S. in particular are oil junkies and the oil companies are the dealers.

-BC-


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## TexasClodhopper (Jul 18, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Again, Chuck, I don't want you to think I'm just arguing with you, because I'm just arguing the point.

The point is this. We HAVEN'T stopped looking for alternative energy sources! The search for new supplies of energy has been on the increase for more than 20 years. The damn news media makes it sound like THEIR politicians have just discovered the way to free us from the shackles of crude oil. 

It isn't newsworthy to report the boring details of a college-style electric car 'race' with speeds approaching 40 MPH! This kind of stuff has been going on for many years with sponsorship by the major car companies and many other industries.

The 'marketplace' determined many years ago that there was a market for alternative energy sources. The point is that we can't use them right now! We have to have crude oil to fuel our economy until some alternative becomes economically viable.

No alternative energy resource has become an economically viable fuel source. The government can encourage alternatives in certain ways, but it cannot legislate those alternatives into existence. Those damn fools can't do anything right except continue their existence, and that's still wrong.


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## Buckeye Chuck (Jul 18, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

You're right Tex. Hopefully some day there will be a viable answer to this never ending problem.  In the mean time let's just enjoy RVing the best way we can.

God bless the U.S.A.

-BC-


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## try2findus (Jul 18, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Tex, you are so right!  I guess everything IS bigger in Texas~namely your brain.  You being from Texas you are as familiar with the oil industry as one can be I suppose.  

I have no problem with more drilling and even more drilling, but I agree it will be sold to the highest bidders and the USA is once again will be SOL.  

Alternatives such as Hydro, Wind and solar are absolutely something we need to start putting into the equation NOW.  

TEX FOR PRESIDENT!!     Now that's one Texan I could get behind for President!  Where were you 7 1/2 years ago?


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## TexasClodhopper (Jul 18, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Not smart; just old.  :blush:


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## TexasClodhopper (Jul 20, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?



And one more thing ...  

California alone uses more gasoline than any country in the world (except the US as a whole, of course). That means California's 20 billion gallon gasoline and diesel habit is greater than China's! (Or Russia's. Or India's. Or Brazil's. Or Germany's.)  

Amazing Stat: California Uses More Gas than China  By Alexis Madrigal July 17, 2008 | 10:54:21 AM


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## TexasClodhopper (Jul 20, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

OK, this is the last one for me.

Hybrids are easy on the environment and conservative on gas--a winning solution for easing pain at the pump. But there's a catch: You may have to drive thousands of miles over several years before the savings on gas catch up to the extra expense of the car....

... The 2008 Lexus LS600h sedan would take 1,390,850 miles to break even at Los Angeles gas prices ($4.59 per gallon). If you drive 15,000 miles per year, that's 92.7 years....

... The best deal for a Los Angeles commuter is the $25,200 Toyota Camry hybrid that only costs $200 more than the gas-powered Camry XLE. The hybrid gets 34 mpg, and the gas model gets only 22 mpg. The owner of the hybrid breaks even after 18,292 miles. For Los Angles commuters who log 15,000 miles a year, that&rsquo;s just a little over a year of driving....

Best Hybrids For The Buck | Jacqueline Mitchell 07.18.08, 4:00 PM ET


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## utmtman (Jul 21, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Hey tex I would never believe those gas figures.  We had a 92 toyota camry that was listed at like 19 city and 22 highway.  We got as much as 35 highway and never  less than 22 city.   The daughter has it now and she says she is averaging 30 to 33 mpg.   My gmc sonoma I just dumped was listed at 18 and we got 22 highway and at the worst 17 towing our tent trailer.  So I ma willing to bet that toyota Camry XLE which is the same model I had will get as much if not more than the hybrid.


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## TexasClodhopper (Jul 21, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

Those are just some news stories that I ran across in researching both "sides" of the alternatives solutions. The stories aren't here to question the veracity of automobile advertising of MPG numbers.

The story about the hybrids will allow you some reference on how long it might take to repay the difference in the two vehicles if one chose to go that route. (I was a little surprised that there is a vehicle that might justify the purchase price difference in less than 20,000 miles. I always was considering a 50,000 mile payback for cars.)


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## utmtman (Jul 22, 2008)

Re: Alternatives Anyone?

When the Geo Metros came out my daughter bought one and got 60 mpg.  And I was a GM mechanic back than and saw a lot of metros that were getting 50 mpg.   And those people also were getting over 200,000 miles out of their cars before replacing them.  Even saw one that had 600,000 miles on it.  I wonder if maybe smaller engines would not be better than hybrid especially with the cost to buy them.


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